BM
Generators such as the one currently being used is a dated method of using AC power from your building and converting it to DC power.

There are alternatives to generators that supply DC power to modern controllers that feed your current hoist machine.
Or your current hoist may be fitted with a VVVF hoist motor that uses AC power.
The condition of your hoist machines will influence that decision.

Here is a link to an article you may find interesting;
http://www.elevatorworld.com/magazine/elevator-modernization-condominio/

By the way folks--I've just received some corrected information: The unobtainable part was a commutator.

BM

Add GAL to the list of controllers they are out of New York and we have installed about 30 units of theirs and about 40 units with Motion Control.All really good stuff. Stay with these over the Big 4 and you will save some $$$ in the future and have more optios if you are unhappy with your service provider. The Big 4 will still install this equipment if you will not let them use their own.

jkh we almost exclusively use mp lifts for all our new/mod apllications but they now provide a serial data type control of which you need a test tool.

BM, if you are having commutator problems it would mean your whole armature needs replacing. you can get a good result from this repair however probably very costly. the thing is you have to make the decision on whether you think other than the generator the lifts have been pretty reliable. its all about projecting when and if the lift failures become so prevelant that you have to constantly repair them and this means costs and down time. chicken or the egg scenario. if you modernise the lifts you know you will have the spares close by and for a reasonable long time but you cant know this regarding the old existing lifts.

the control we talk about means the existing controllers are completely removed and the lift is rewired completely and is not just plugged in to existing elevator controls. think of it as a new lift but most of the mechanical stuff is reused.to get a better understanding it might be an idea to speak to otis and get them to take you too a mod job.

Proprietary Vs. Non-Proprietary.

You buy a new Ford. Would you take it to a chevy dealer for service? Or Vice Versa?

Now...Ford, Chevy, Chrysler, etc...Have spent 100's of millions of R&D money to utilize the latest and greatest technology in their proucts. Hard for a couple of guys building something in the garage to compete with.

Most of the Non-Proprietary equipment mentioned above is at least 10 to 15 years behind, technoligically, over the major OEM's.

The Non-Proprietary buzz word is a favorite of consultants, since they don't have to know anything about elevator equipment except that it's Non-Proprietary.

And having the sacred Non-Proprieatary title means you can get ANYONE...Qualified or not, to come in take care of your elevator and expect full factory support.

Let's see what Non-Proprietary really means.
You can put in an MCE for instance. You can then get ANYBODY off the street to take care of it. Now that Anybody can get a "Gold" level of support for the guy off the street, but for a price. Or if you pass up the maintenace package, you will be charged by the hour for every call your guy off the street, makes for a phone call for factory support.

Now...How about Swift?
Owned by TK. Yeah they claim to be NON-Proprietary. Same thing as MCE. Every call for support cost's MOOLA. And for those living in Canada, I'm sure you've already figured out the word NON-Proprieatary has several levels of interpretation.

There's just a few other players in the non-proprietary market. Virginia control (A PLC based control), Elevator Controls (Basically Motion type stuff). And a few others.

Propretary does not strictly mean exactly that either. TK, takes care of plenty of other PROPRIETARY equipment. As well as others of the big 4 taking care of competitors proprietary equipment.

If you do the research, cleanly reverse engineer you competitors equipment, nothing is proprietary.

Why others rag on "Proprieatary controls" is beyond me. The OEM's are the guys that brought you all the innovation you have seen in the past and will continue to see in the future.

A proper Mod would be similar to a full-body off restoration on a vehicle where you would install all new and up to code wiring and mechanical without a new machine, rails and entrances. This would depend on the condition of the above items of course. Most likely you have an Otis "CT" geared machine of some size-if so these are really well built and typically do not need to be replaced with the exception of the DC motor of course.

Call one of the "non proprietary" controller manufacturers and ask them for a circuit board schematic. And copies of all their software code.
The point is that most ALL equipment is, by necessity , somewhat proprietary. Some more than others, for sure.
The important question is how much it will cost the owner to purchase the equipment and then maintain it, in a satisfactory manner, over the long term.
And what constitutes "satisfactory" maintenance? And how is that to be determined and enforced?
And what is "long term" ?
Been in this long enough to know that this industry, like most competitive industries, is driven by the customers demands and expectations, not so much the suppliers wishes.
We all know of customers who demand first class maintenance, and get first class maintenance. You know the ones, strictly enforced maintenance hours, spare parts requirements, callback targets, regular meetings to make sure everything is satisfactory, penalties, cancellation clauses, etc, etc.
The business is what it is. Some good and some not so good.
Just remember the most important thing, over and above anything else.

SAFETY for the riding public, and for yourself.

Mod them. Go with non proprietary equipment. Swift or Motion control. Do away with generators. Only thing good from GAL is the door Operator controls, I like the MOVFR. The bearings in the door linkages are junk. But I would stay away from GAL controllers. Swift futura controls on gearless applications cant be beat. Motion Controls also make a good product but I perfer swift.

http://www.swiftcec.com/resources/documents/tear-sheets/CEC-Tear-Futura.pdf

Dont need no lab top or ribbon cable, Wizard program is right there for you. AWESOME!!!!

Swift has all the manuals for the products on their web page. Fault codes, adjustments, Drive info, and anything else you need to know. True non proprietary.

Check it out for yourself
http://www.swiftcec.com/support/manuals.html

Maybe some of our Canadian guys can pipe in about Swift's non-proprietary claim. (Try buying parts there)

And as a side note I believe Swift's fault trapping and playback of I/O on the Futura/Meridia product is something every manufacturer ought to have.

But the serial link has a ways to go.

And their biggest drawback is that for every Swift unit put in, you're basically putting in money into TK's pockets. And I know of no other Competitors out there that relish that thought.

Personally I think Swift has gone down a little since the buyout, and the same with Motion since some recent management changes.

Try one of these...
http://www.swiftcec.com/resources/documents/manuals/5000/swift5000_startup.pdf

Sounds good in theory, but the above documentation is all you get. They fail to tell you about the modified DAR card, in the writeup, and a few other things. They will offer to fly down for $1500 a day, but if you persist enough they will make you another specialized DAR and hold you hostage till you prove that's the problem.

Similar stuff with Motion. Willing to fly down at a drop of a hat for $1500 a day, plus expenses, but with no guarantee that they will fix anything.

I know of NO OEM's who, send a field engineer out that doesn't guarantee they will fix it.

We're now talking about a complete armature replacement as part of a generator rebuild. But we are still probably looking at a complete "modernization" at some point over the next couple of years.

Thanks,

BM

ok BM. i dont necessarily agree that the OEM companies are 10-15 years ahead of the non OEM companies. the advent of gearless electronic drives,VVVF drives,gearless ac machines have been around for a long time and generally in my experience the software is really the only difference between companies and this doesnt really show a clear or better performance than any others from MCE to MCS411 to MIPROLOG/STAR(local product).

there is nothing wrong with going down the OEM path but you must be informed of the prorietary nature of the equipment if you do decide to get another service co in. as long as you are informed before you go ahead then its all up to you how you procede. finally remember i always recommend an all inclusive maintenace contract as generally includes all service facet costs(with a few exclusions ie vandalism) and you can consider it as an insurance policy against failure.

That is the old 5000. There are no DAR boards in the Futura. The recorder on the RVU is awesome. Whats wrong with putting money in Thyssens pocket? They pay me very well;)