I was surfing the internet hi and low, but was unable to find any answers for my question, so I was hoping that some of you guys would be able to answer this for me.
I apologize in advance, if this is the wrong forum and moderators please feel free to move this post to where you think it belongs.
I don't know much about elevators, so try to avoid getting too technical if possible...:)
I always wondered if the following sequence is possible, or if such occurrence was ever recorded?
I do know, that there are records of all of these events happening separately, but never in one shot...
I'm going to suggest a following scenario and I would like to know, if something like this would be possible under certain circumstances?
Suppose that one person steps onto a traction elevator at the ground floor and at the same time, there is some sort of a catastrophic malfunction, in which the brake mechanism/gearbox or any form of mechanical resistance fails.
Assuming, that the counterweight is heavier than the one person + the elevator car, could the following happen:
The elevator starts ascending towards the top of the shaft and it is gaining speed...for the sake of argument let's assume this is a tall building, so it has time to build up quite the momentum.
By the time it reaches the top of the shaft, it crashes with so much force, that the ropes will somehow separate from the cab and the emergency braking mechanism (which from my limited understanding is located on the top of the car) is now too damaged to deploy properly.
So now the elevator car is plunging to the bottom of the shaft at free fall.
The car hits the bottom pit and the ceiling of the shaft gives away moments later due to the structural failure sustained by the car running into it, so now all of the elevator machinery along with chunks of concrete come crashing down on top of the car...
Would this be possible?
What would all have to go wrong for something like this to happen all in one sequence?
Thank you for any reply's.
METHINKS THIS WAS TRIED IN SEVERAL MOVIES AND ELEVATOR MEN EVERYWHERE JUST CHUCKLED AS WE WATCHED IT UNFOLD.
http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/accidentsmishaps/a/barrel_bricks.htm
-pk-
The reason I thought this would be possible is, that I have stumbled across a documented case on the internet a while ago, in which the elevator at some sort of a textile factory in the US took a plunge and the machinery has followed shortly after...I will do my best to try and find that news article and will post a link.
The reason I personally thought that the machinery falling through the ceiling wasn't so far fetched is the fact, that just like any other structure, the ceiling of the shaft is not immune to being damaged...
Being that there is so much weight sitting directly on top of it means, that it already has some stress load on it to begin with...
I have no idea what the weight of the elevator car is, but I don't think it is too light to cause damage, especially if it has sufficient time to build up the upwards momentum.
I'm pretty sure that the mass X velocity of the car and the strength of the ceiling shaft could be brought to light through some sort of a calculation, which I'm unable to perform...
I will do my best to find you that link about this case..
I think it was on Mythbusters when they put it through the test and found out that it was feasible, as they were able to replicate this sequence as described in the legend...:)
I could not find a separate link, so this link gives you a list of 10 elevator accidents, all in one article...
This one is at number 9 and it is listed as "American Woolen Company"
http://listverse.com/2011/12/23/10-tragic-elevator-accidents/
I wish I was a lawyer, but I'm not.
If I was a lawyer, I'm pretty sure I could hire one of you guys to consult me without having to join a discussion forum on the internet...
I'm just an average person, whom likes to analyze things in more depth than most people would ever bother...
I simply thought, that the best way to get the answer to my question would be going straight to the source and asking a bunch of professionals from the elevator industry...?
I'm not sure what you meant by "this is dumb", as I have already admitted above, that my knowledge of elevator systems is very basic at best...
This however does not mean that I'm a complete idiot...it only means that I'm not familiar with the technical jargon and inner workings of the various elevator systems...
I was basing my scenario question on the known laws of physics and some documented cases from the past regarding elevator accidents...
Again, I have no idea by what you mean by CWT safeties or buffers, as I'm not an elevator tech...could you elaborate in more details?
All I'm looking for is for someone to explain this to me in laymen's terms, without insults or suspicions of having ulterior motives...
https://naesai.org/UserFiles/5_Houston_TX_flier_2014_2.pdf
Notice all the books required just to prepare and take this test.
A17.1 / CSA B44 Safety Code for Elevators and Escalators
� A17.2 Guide for Inspection of Elevators, Escalators and Moving Walks
� A17.3 Safety Code for Existing Elevators and Escalators
� A18.1 Safety Standard for Platform Lifts and Stairway Chairlifts
� NFPA 70 National Electrical Code
� QEI-1 Standard for the Qualifications of Elevator Inspectors
� Elevator Industry Field Employee�s Safety Handbook
� And more
These books alone require a couple of grand and hour upon hour of study just to be up with the current codes, which are constantly changing.
And that's just to inspect them and be up on current code. And to work on them opens a complete new set of educational requirements. A rigoruous 5 year course with overseer's from the government, Companies and Unions. Course descriptions below.
http://www.neiep.org/courses/default.aspx
That's not counting all the company classes, adjuster classes,Night classes for advanced degrees (Usually in electronics or computer architecture, or programming).
And yes. In my 35 years I have witnessed the scenario you describe. An older open loop control from the 60's. Not seen it on any of the newer controls because of built in safety redundancy. There are just so many possibilitys to your scenario, I'm sure everyone here on this board could dream of this happening if X,Y,Z happened on Control type Q...
Probably wont post here for a long time again, but that's just too much hassle.
Hope that helps Driver
As Broke Sheave has pointed out, I'm starting to get the hint that the answer to my question might not be easy, as there are too many factors at play.
@Johnny...good point about the CWT safety stops, as this single feature would likely take the wind out of the rapid ascend by stopping the counterweights before the cabin crashes into the ceiling, but I'm getting the sense that most shafts are not equipped with the extra space needed?
I think that for most part, I have enough partial reply's to be able to piece together that this sequence could occur (maybe in the past) under certain circumstances, as per Broke Sheave's quote:
@Broken sheave, I know that you said you are not likely to post again, but if you do I would like to ask you if you could confirm, that scenario you said to have witnessed also included the shaft ceiling caving in and spilling out the machinery down into the shaft (as per my scenario), since this is probably the only piece of puzzle that I'm still not sure about?
Postal has pointed out earlier, that in the link that I have provided, the fall of the drum machinery was most likely due to the use of timber in the overhead structure (yes I'm aware that the cab has never hit the ceiling in that case, but that is one of very few cases I could find, which involves machinery falling on top of the cab)....
At this point I'm still unsure, if a concrete ceiling of later construction could fail structurally, had it sustained a hard enough hit hit from the ascending cab?
Again, I very much appreciate all of your answers you guys provided to me so far...
This one showed me that brakes can fail and elevator can fall "upwards"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijLywn1-2Gg
This one showed me that the fail-safe brakes, which should stop elevators from plunging may not always work:
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?id=8601546
And this one showed me, that an elevator car can hit the ceiling with hard enough force to kill:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/13/nyregi...s-sq-tower.html
All of these incidents played a part in my initial question above.